Reef Fish
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Re: Snorkeling Fin Advice
Lee Bell wrote:
> > Reef Fish wrote:
>
> >>I can last longer underwater with my long fins than most scuba
> >>divers with the same size tanks of air. It's as relaxing and
> >>propelling as fins of other lengths -- just more efficient.
>
> Irrelevant argument. He could last longer underwater longer than
most scuba
> divers when he was using shorter fins too. His ability to outlast
others is
> a function of his low gas consumption. There is no conclusive
relationship
> to the length of his fins.
What irrelevant argument? I was stating the SAME thing as you did --
that my <long fins> are "as relaxing and propelling" as <my> fins
of other lengths.
>
> I don't know if longer fins are more efficient.
As stated my in previous posts, it's more efficient for those who
acquired the skill of how to use it properly and efficiently. That's
why most freedivers use them. Also, most of the MDs on liveaboard
boats use them now.
>
> "Ken Tough" wrote
>
> > Probably the biggest factor in improving one's use of air is
> > learning proper bouyancy control.
>
> Most divers with low gas consumption don't agree.
I agree totally!
> Buoyancy control
> certainly is a factor, but most, including me, believe that being
relaxed
> and comfortable during the dive is the number one factor.
It's inseparable from good <very good> buoyancy control.
> Nervous divers simply don't do as well as calm ones.
Show me a nervous diver, and I'll show you one who needs lots of
lessons and practice on buoyancy control.
> > If you can stay where you want to be without burning energy, you
don't
> > burn air either.
> > [And you don't trash the world around you either, which without
bouyancy
> > control
> > your average diver -will do- with bigger fins].
The "average" diver will trash corals with whatever size fins they
wear,
and if that is not doing a good enough job, they would grab the corals
with their gloved hands, even when gloves are are allowed in many
marine parks.
>
> If you could stay where you want without burning energy, you wouldn't
need
> fins in the first place.
Lee's superficial understanding of "buoyancy control" reveled itself
right here!!!
Good buoyancy control means one is "neutrally buoyant" AT ALL TIMES
during a dive. Neutrally buoyant means you can remain completely
motionless and will not ascend or descend.
But that's a far cry from saying you "wouldn't need fins" <in the
first or whatever place>.
A perfectly neutrally buoyant diver needs fins AT ALL TIME to propel
himself in water to get to wherever he intends to go.
> I don't agree that there is a relationship between
> longer fins and trashing the reef. A good diver knows where he, and
his
> equipment, are at all times. That's true whether his fins are long
or
> short. Buoyancy control matters too, but it's the diver's awareness
of what
> he's doing that is key.
That much is correct.
>
> >>I always thought, and still think, that's the SILLEST requirement
> >>for scuba divers who ALWAYS dive with fins! If the initial
> >>qualifying "test" had been to swim 800 yards WITH fins, I would
> >>have done it in 8 minutes, have lunch, and come back to see the
> >>rest of the trainees finish the same distance. :-))
>
> The requirement has been cut from this thread,
Not sure what this meant. I was speaking of the requirement for
SCUBA divers even before they are allowed to have training for
certification.
> but if it's a surface swim, I
> doubt it. Perhaps Bob's fins are as good on the surface as they are
> underwater. Mine certainly are not.
I had been surface swimming WITH fins for years before I started
scuba diving, so for those fins I used, they were certainly as
good on the surface as under water. However, I have not done much
surface swim with the long fins to compare accurately.
>
> The one thing that has not been discussed here is problems with long
fins
> prior to a dive. Those that have the luxury of sitting on a dive
platform
> and having their equipment brought to them don't have a problem with
long
> fins. Those that have to put them on first and move to the platform,
> usually do.
Long or short fins, the proper way is to WALK to the platform without
fins and don them right before one enters water.
On dive boats, one often does a backward roll from the side, without
walking to any platform. In those cases, it makes little difference
whether the fins are long or short as long as you don't kick someone
on the face on the back roll.
> Perhaps as important to most of us is, with long fins, is that
> they often cause problems for everybody else on the boat as well.
Only the clueless long-fin users cause problem for anyone.
> They're
> particularly problematic on boats with a raised engine compartment in
the
> center. There's no place for the fins to be except in the space
reserved
> for the diver sitting next to you.
Lee is probably relating to his own tiny boats. I have yet to run
across any dive boat that "has no place for the fins". LOL
>
> > Never lost a fin in rough sea then? It can happen, and it would
> > be a shame to drown just because of it.
>
> Actually, no. I've never lost a fin during a dive.
Neither have I, but a DM I dived with used to play tricks on me by
sneaking up on me and pull one of my fins off and go away laughing
-- until I realized that I could move almost as well with only ONE
fin as I do with two. :-) I have jumped from liveaboard boats
into the water without fins and I can assure you that there is a
big difference between having ONE fin and no fin.
> In previous
> discussions, Bob has indicated his belief that, in normal swimming,
the kick
> is unimportant, that it contributes little to forward motion. Good
swimmers
> know better.
>
> Lee
I was speaking of the freestyle (or Australian crawl). It occurred in
a discussion years ago. Everyone but Lee KNEW that in doing the crawl,
especially in distance swimming anything more than a couple hundred
yards the propultion comes from the SHOULDERS, upper torso and arms
pulling, with the feet "dragging" gently behind.
That's why competitive swimmers do laps with feet NOT moving at all.
I used to be a competitive swimmer in my younger days. Lee thinks he
knows how to swim because he was hired as a lifeguard some time in
his life. For VERY short distance sprints, the kick is important
in "freestyle" (that was Tarzen's forte) but fast cycle kicks
tires a swimmer VERY quickly.
Just do a search in newsgroups or webpages on the Australian crawl
(or freestyle) and see how it SHOULD be done, and you'll see Lee is
completely out on his usual limb. After having been corrected
dozens of times, on subjects of scuba technique, physics,
physiology, dive computers, etc., etc., Lee brags that he has
had me in his killfile <blocked sender's list>, yet continue to
follow-up on my posts WITHOUT READING them, but only on snippets
other posts cited.
Here's an excerpt from a swimming coach about freesyle kicks:
BIGGERSTUFF Aug 15 2003, 1:16 am show options
Newsgroups: rec.sport.triathlon
Subject: Re: the freestyle kick
> Not that it's harder, no. As I mentioned, the main purpose of the
kick
> is to help you have a proper position in the water. You should be
pretty
> much horizontal in the water with your hips breaking the surface.
Doing
> this properly means both upper body balance (pushing down with your
> chest) and light kicking.
Note: "light kicking"
> I find that with the extra buoyancy of a wetsuit, I don't really
need to
> kick at all to get a proper position in the water. In a race, I
usually
> let them rest for most of the swim, but start kicking a little at
the
> end to get some blood going in the right direction for the bike.
> James
Note: "don't really need to kick at all" ... "rest for most of the
swim"
and "start kicking little at the end".
"I am a swim coach and have coached many nationally ranked swimmers at
all ages. To your question about kicking with a kick board:yes you
should train kicking laps at a local pool back and forth with a
kickboard. "
That's why freestyle swimmers train with kick boards -- and NOT use
any kick at all!
" In swimming freestyle, we use
the terms 2 beat, 4 beat, 6 beat, and 8 beat kick (similar to the tempo
in music). During long distance swimming, 2 beat kick is commonly used
when swimming freestyle. usually the kick will follow the tempo of the
arms. "
That was what I posted about MY kick cycle with long fins before
I saw this article: "2 beat". Tarzen Johnny was known to use 8
beat kick when he had to rescue Jane. Lee is no Tarzen, though he
might qualify to play the ape. :-)
"as you get closer to the finish line, you should rise to 4 beat
or even 6 beat to fasten your pace."
This is sometimes called the "dragging feet" style in doing the
crawl. The shoulders and upper torso do most of the work dragging
the feet along, until the very end.
In SCUBA, one does not use the shoulders or arms AT ALL -- only
the legs and fins.
Those are completely different swimming techniques -- which was
just another reason why I had said,
> >>I always thought, and still think, that's the SILLEST requirement
> >>for scuba divers who ALWAYS dive with fins!
which generated part of the discussion above.
-- Bob.
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