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afia boy
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article in IEEE Spectrum


http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/career...ds/nov04/1104e=
esb1.html

Stay Current, Stay Lucky, Stay Employed

Electrical engineering isn't the same ticket to a comfortable,
middle-class life that it once was

By Paul Wallich

FOR THE LEGIONS of young people who measure a profession by the
purchasing power of its practitioners, electrical engineering has been
losing luster for decades. In 1969, a U.S. electrical engineer made
almost as much as a lawyer or judge-on average US $ 11 180 a year,
according to the 1974 edition of the Statistical Abstract of the United
States. Twenty years ago, compensation was still good: full-time EEs
who weren't self-employed earned about $34 000-close to $4000 more
than the average for a salaried doctor, according to figures from the
U=2ES. Department of Labor.

But for electrical engineers in the United States and other
industrialized countries, real salary gains have been close to
negligible for years. Between 1971 and 1997, the average salary of an
IEEE member barely kept ahead of inflation. More substantial gains
since then have been tempered by a roughly fivefold increase in the
unemployment rate, to approximately 7 percent of EEs in 2003. In the
meantime, IEEE members' median salaries have fallen from about the 92nd
percentile of U.S. household income in 1971 to about the 85th two years
ago, according to a recent study by IEEE-USA.

The reasons for economic stagnation among U.S. and other first-world
EEs aren't obscure. A major one is that these workers inhabit an
increasingly global business environment in which cheaper but
nonetheless effective technological expertise always seems available
somewhere else. Whatever the reasons, electrical engineering is not as
attractive a career as it once was. Indeed, the entire notion of an
engineering career as a ticket to a comfortable middle-class life may
no longer be true, says Rosalind H. Williams, director of the Program
in Science, Technology, and Society at the Massachusetts Institute of
Technology, in Cambridge. Jobs do not last as long as they once did,
she notes, and salaries are flat.

For as long as EEs have been around, electrical engineering has changed
with the decades, and EEs have had to change, too, or be left behind.
The number of jobs has also had its ups and downs over the last 40
years, and periodic recessions have forced many EEs out of the
profession, notes Robert A. Rivers, of Orange, Mass., editor of the
now-defunct Engineering Manpower Newsletter. But the extreme salary
disparity between the fully industrialized and the less-developed
countries is a fundamental new shift in the employment equation.
Unfortunately, no one really knows how many or what kind of jobs are
being sent offshore, says Ronil Hira, an assistant professor of public
policy at the Rochester Institute of Technology, in New York. The data
simply are not being collected.

Most companies don't want it known that they're shipping out
white-collar operations, Hira says, because of the obvious potential
for backlash from customers, employees, and competitors. The widely
cited estimate by Cambridge, Mass.-based Forrester Research that up to
half a million computer-industry jobs will leave the United States by
2015 may be excessive, but even a fraction of that number could be
disastrous for IEEE's U.S. membership, Hira says.

It is clear, he notes, that less exalted jobs such as tech support and
low-level programming and design aren't the only ones going offshore.
Engineers tell Hira that Texas Instruments, in Dallas, for example, has
transferred its entire IEEE 802.11b wireless R&D effort from Research
Triangle Park, N.C., to Bangalore, India, and that Agilent Technologies
Inc., a Hewlett-Packard Co. spinoff in Palo Alto, Calif., has moved
much of its semiconductor R&D to Singapore. Meanwhile, Indian computer
services giant Infosys Technologies Ltd., in Bangalore, is growing so
rapidly that its market valuation is higher than that of U.S. giant
Electronic Data Systems Corp., in Plano, Texas.

When a salary of $15 000 a year in India or Russia buys technical
capabilities comparable to those that would cost $70 000 in the United
States, the business case for moving technical jobs to lower-cost
countries is hard to counter. "The U.S. is still the place where
innovation takes place," says Mathukumalli Vidyasagar, an IEEE fellow
who heads Tata Consultancy's Advanced Technology Centre in Hyderabad,
India. "But to turn an idea into a prototype and then a product does
not require the same level of people or the same salaries."

Vidyasagar returned to his native India in 1989 after more than 20
years as an electrical engineering professor in North America. He
argues that the U.S. position as a center of innovation is safe for at
least the next generation but that the loss of hands-on engineering
jobs could ultimately threaten that role.

On the other hand, Kenneth R. Foster, a professor in the bioengineering
department at the University of Pennsylvania, in Philadelphia, is
concerned for the present generation. He finds the engineering field
"in turmoil," with the job market much less stable for engineers than
it has ever been. "Many engineers change jobs so often that they wind
up with no vested pension rights," he says. And with so much movement
between short-term jobs, Foster wonders if a sufficient number of
engineers will be available in the future with the advanced design
skills needed at innovative and top-of-the-line engineering companies.
The question is whether engineering careers remain sufficiently
desirable relative to other career options to attract and keep the best
and brightest students in the field, says Foster.

Prospects can be daunting for EEs who want to keep up their skills to
remain employable. Although many of the senior engineers who spoke to
IEEE Spectrum stressed the need for technical currency and lifelong
learning, reinventing yourself every few years may go only so far. Take
Sandra Robinson of Fort Worth, Texas, a systems integrator turned
database engineer turned technical business analyst almost turned
community college instructor turned database engineer (again). She was
unemployed for 30 months before landing a job last year in defense,
which tends to be resistant to moving jobs offshore because government
security rules effectively require employees to be U.S. citizens. Many
job postings, she recalls, "wanted six months experience on very
specific versions of software that wasn't in existence when I was in
the trenches." Some of her fellow EEs left the profession entirely, she
says-one is now a financial advisor, another a telemarketer.

"I don't think that going back to school to learn new technology
helps," says David Meppelink, a Boston-area software engineer who found
himself scrambling for a safer job when his employer was bought and
started downsizing. Prospective employers passed him up because they
wanted people who had used particular tools and technologies to build
commercial applications, not just done a semester or two of course work
in school. Meppelink ultimately found work with a former colleague, and
he says he now looks carefully at how his tasks might look on his
r=E9sum=E9. Building software infrastructure for the use of other
programmers in the same company or subsidiary components of a featured
product is out, because he wouldn't be able to tell a future employer
how much his code contributed directly to the company's bottom line.

According to engineering manager Jean Eason of IEEE-USA's Employment
and Career Services Committee, such career management tactics are
becoming common among younger engineers and programmers. They look
carefully at the tasks they take on, she says, because they expect to
change employers on a regular basis throughout their careers.

In Europe, Emile Aarts, a vice president at Philips Research
Laboratories, in Eindhoven, Netherlands, envisions a future in which
most engineering is done locally, to solve problems that people outside
a particular region or subculture might not comprehend. Such work, he
suggests, will require not merely multidisciplinary teams but engineers
with a wide range of interests in addition to deep technical
competence. You need "mathematicians who play in a band on the weekend,
EEs who do drama, industrial engineers who dance," he says.

Will engineers in lower-income countries eventually learn to dance,
too? As things stand now, say Vidyasagar and others, in India or
Eastern Europe or Russia, the tendency to think inside the box is still
strong. Changing engineering cultures could take generations, says
Vidyasagar. In addition to its enormous material head start, he
contends, the United States also enjoys a more immigrant-friendly
culture, so that any given team is more likely to contain a wide mix of
backgrounds and viewpoints.

Even the most culturally enlightened and versatile engineers may
nevertheless face a peculiar paradox: the profession tends to put its
own practitioners out of work. John Mashey, a former chief scientist at
Silicon Graphics Inc., in Mountain View, Calif., notes that one of
electrical engineering's recurring themes is reducing complex tasks to
routine practice. That, in turn, often means that fewer EEs are needed.
Mashey, now a technology consultant, notes how his own field shrank
once a few CPU architectures became dominant. Big projects that once
called for CPU designers now often demand only routine application of
design-automation software, he says.

The good news is that as some engineering tasks become obsolete, new
application areas open up, Mashey adds. He points to Canesta Inc., of
San Jose, Calif., a new company that recently began offering modules
for three-dimensional "machine vision" based on the time it takes light
pulses to illuminate a scene and return to a sensor. The company offers
modules or circuit and optical hardware layouts, plus software, that
designers can apply to position-location and tracking systems of their
own.

Of course, as technological advances and offshoring alter the
engineering landscape, predicting the future is far from easy. It never
was. William A. Wulf, president of the National Academy of Engineering,
in Washington, D.C., who has just finished shepherding a task force
that considered what engineers will be doing in 2020, fully expects
that his successors will ask the same kinds of existential questions
about what their field will look like in 2050. He feels, though, that
even then, people with an irremediable bent to shape the more or less
material world will still be doing engineering.

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Old Post 12-24-2004 06:02 AM
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afia boy
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Re: article in IEEE Spectrum

I like this excerpt:
"Twenty years ago, full time EE's who weren't self-employed earned ...
close to $4000 more than the average for a salaried doctor. ... In the
meantime, IEEE members' median salaries have fallen from about the 92nd
percentile of U.S. household income in 1971 to about the 85th two years
ago."

\|/.

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Old Post 12-24-2004 06:03 AM
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BMJ
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Re: article in IEEE Spectrum

afia boy wrote:
> http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/career.../1104eesb1.html
>
> Stay Current, Stay Lucky, Stay Employed
>
> Electrical engineering isn't the same ticket to a comfortable,
> middle-class life that it once was
>
> By Paul Wallich
>
> FOR THE LEGIONS of young people who measure a profession by the
> purchasing power of its practitioners, electrical engineering has been
> losing luster for decades. In 1969, a U.S. electrical engineer made
> almost as much as a lawyer or judge-on average US $ 11 180 a year,
> according to the 1974 edition of the Statistical Abstract of the United
> States. Twenty years ago, compensation was still good: full-time EEs
> who weren't self-employed earned about $34 000-close to $4000 more
> than the average for a salaried doctor, according to figures from the
> U.S. Department of Labor.


<snip>

The only employer I worked for in recent years at which my salary
increased was where I used to teach. Intially, those increases were
because of seniority, but towards the end, they were more cost-of-living
adjustments.

The best way I found to make any real money was through saving and
investing what I had. I certainly didn't make all that much working for
a living.

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Old Post 12-24-2004 01:06 PM
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R. Martin
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Re: article in IEEE Spectrum

afia boy wrote:
>
> http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/career.../1104eesb1.html
>
> Stay Current, Stay Lucky, Stay Employed
>
> Electrical engineering isn't the same ticket to a comfortable,
> middle-class life that it once was
>
> By Paul Wallich
>
> FOR THE LEGIONS of young people who measure a profession by the
> purchasing power of its practitioners, electrical engineering has been
> losing luster for decades. In 1969, a U.S. electrical engineer made
> almost as much as a lawyer or judge-on average US $ 11 180 a year,
> according to the 1974 edition of the Statistical Abstract of the United
> States. Twenty years ago, compensation was still good: full-time EEs
> who weren't self-employed earned about $34 000-close to $4000 more
> than the average for a salaried doctor, according to figures from the
> U.S. Department of Labor.
>
> But for electrical engineers in the United States and other
> industrialized countries, real salary gains have been close to
> negligible for years. Between 1971 and 1997, the average salary of an
> IEEE member barely kept ahead of inflation. More substantial gains
> since then have been tempered by a roughly fivefold increase in the
> unemployment rate, to approximately 7 percent of EEs in 2003.


snip

7% unemployment? That was above the national average, IIRC. But
we need more engineers. The U.S. government says so, and it's never
wrong! ;-)

The rest of the article goes on to explain some of the disconnect
between the soft job market that some of us see and the labor
shortage that others imagine. The gap is filled by unemployed and
underemployed technically trained people who only have experience
with version 6.2 of the software and employers who think they
absolutely must have someone with experience with version 6.3, and
other such thinking. We've discussed this phenomenon before here,
but it still bemuses me. Is it because the people doing the hiring
are not technically knowledgeable themselves, so they see mastering
a new version of some software package as a huge mountain to climb
because it would be for them, when for an experienced person it takes
a day or two of playing with the software? One must concede that
truly new skills do come into demand and the need for some older
skills decreases, but if there is truly a looming disaster in the
technical labor market, it is easier to retrain someone with a degree
who already knows the basics than to convince a youngster that he/she
should good into a field and then get that person through school.

In the longer term, of course, we need youngsters to make such career
choices, but it might be easier to sell given career fields to them
if they have not heard of cases where, say, electrical engineers
have been out of work for 30 months during which time the government
is saying there is a looming shortage of engineers and companies are
offshoring jobs as fast as they possibly can. Where does the
responsibility to train or retrain people lie? Well, I'm not going
to say that individuals bear no responsibiity for their own careers.
OTOH if the government is going to periodically put out studies,
policy statements, etc. about the looming shortage of labor,
industries are going to publish articles in trade magazines about
how hard it is to find employees, and companies are going to move
jobs offshore without first making a good faith effort to keep
the jobs in the U.S., then I say government and industry have a
responsibility to step up to the plate and act instead of wringing
their collective hands. Until then, whenever I hear another claim
of impending sci/tech labor shortages, I will say "Bah, humbug!"

God bless us, every one. Merry Christmas!

Russell
--
All too often the study of data requires care.

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Old Post 12-24-2004 05:11 PM
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straydog
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Re: article in IEEE Spectrum




On Fri, 24 Dec 2004, R. Martin wrote:

> Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 18:27:34 GMT
> From: R. Martin <russell.martin@wdn.com>
> Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
> Subject: Re: article in IEEE Spectrum
>
> afia boy wrote:
>>
>> http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/career.../1104eesb1.html
>>
>> Stay Current, Stay Lucky, Stay Employed
>>
>> Electrical engineering isn't the same ticket to a comfortable,
>> middle-class life that it once was
>>
>> By Paul Wallich
>>
>> FOR THE LEGIONS of young people who measure a profession by the
>> purchasing power of its practitioners, electrical engineering has been
>> losing luster for decades. In 1969, a U.S. electrical engineer made
>> almost as much as a lawyer or judge-on average US $ 11 180 a year,
>> according to the 1974 edition of the Statistical Abstract of the United
>> States. Twenty years ago, compensation was still good: full-time EEs
>> who weren't self-employed earned about $34 000-close to $4000 more
>> than the average for a salaried doctor, according to figures from the
>> U.S. Department of Labor.
>>
>> But for electrical engineers in the United States and other
>> industrialized countries, real salary gains have been close to
>> negligible for years. Between 1971 and 1997, the average salary of an
>> IEEE member barely kept ahead of inflation. More substantial gains
>> since then have been tempered by a roughly fivefold increase in the
>> unemployment rate, to approximately 7 percent of EEs in 2003.

>
> snip
>
> 7% unemployment? That was above the national average, IIRC. But
> we need more engineers. The U.S. government says so, and it's never
> wrong! ;-)


.....and "enough of the people enough of the time" believe it, too....

> The rest of the article goes on to explain some of the disconnect
> between the soft job market that some of us see and the labor
> shortage that others imagine. The gap is filled by unemployed and
> underemployed technically trained people who only have experience
> with version 6.2 of the software and employers who think they
> absolutely must have someone with experience with version 6.3, and
> other such thinking.


Well, I've seen some of this "incremental new" software and some of those
dinky increments really do have vastly more complexity. Note that I'm not
saying this is good, just that its more complex. Also, fulll of
registerware, sneakwrap traps, built-in spyware, and other bad shit that
too many people ignore.

We've discussed this phenomenon before here,
> but it still bemuses me.


Ugh...it makes ME sick.

Is it because the people doing the hiring
> are not technically knowledgeable themselves,


You're too kind; they live in buzzuniverse, full of buzzwords, buzzthink
and surrounded by buzzreality ..... instead of real reality, common sense,
and practical thinking.

so they see mastering
> a new version of some software package as a huge mountain to climb
> because it would be for them, when for an experienced person it takes
> a day or two of playing with the software? One must concede that
> truly new skills do come into demand and the need for some older
> skills decreases, but if there is truly a looming disaster in the
> technical labor market, it is easier to retrain someone with a degree
> who already knows the basics than to convince a youngster that he/she
> should good into a field and then get that person through school.


Ah...you're forgetting about the age-discrimination (etc) hidden agenda
PLUS the managers (who talked their way into those jobs) don't want anyone
around how is older/wiser than they are and not affraid to speak up.

> In the longer term, of course, we need youngsters to make such career
> choices, but it might be easier to sell given career fields to them
> if they have not heard of cases where, say, electrical engineers
> have been out of work for 30 months during which time the government
> is saying there is a looming shortage of engineers and companies are
> offshoring jobs as fast as they possibly can. Where does the
> responsibility to train or retrain people lie?


Whatever the 'where' is, "...its somebody else's department."

Well, I'm not going
> to say that individuals bear no responsibiity for their own careers.
> OTOH if the government is going to periodically put out studies,
> policy statements, etc. about the looming shortage of labor,
> industries are going to publish articles in trade magazines about
> how hard it is to find employees, and companies are going to move
> jobs offshore without first making a good faith effort to keep
> the jobs in the U.S., then I say government and industry have a
> responsibility to step up to the plate and act instead of wringing
> their collective hands.


Art's "magic strategy" for all this is a big dose of "CYA" and "talk to
the guys in the trenches" and forget listening to "Big Brother" (1984)

Until then, whenever I hear another claim
> of impending sci/tech labor shortages, I will say "Bah, humbug!"


Merry Xmas (or, if you don't like that, then "good health and wishes to
all people of good will")

> God bless us, every one. Merry Christmas!


Bah, Humbug!!!

> Russell
> --
> All too often the study of data requires care.
>





















































































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Old Post 12-24-2004 05:11 PM
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rrcolby
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Re: article in IEEE Spectrum

R. Martin wrote:
> afia boy wrote:
> > FOR THE LEGIONS of young people who measure a profession by the
> > purchasing power of its practitioners, electrical engineering has

been
> > losing luster for decades. In 1969, a U.S. electrical engineer made
> > almost as much as a lawyer or judge-on average US $ 11 180 a year,
> > according to the 1974 edition of the Statistical Abstract of the

United
> > States. Twenty years ago, compensation was still good: full-time

EEs
> > who weren't self-employed earned about $34 000-close to $4000 more
> > than the average for a salaried doctor, according to figures from

the
> > U.S. Department of Labor.
> >


Even the thought of engineers and doctors being at par as far as salary
goes makes me laugh out loud... talk about a field imploding!


> In the longer term, of course, we need youngsters to make such career
> choices, but it might be easier to sell given career fields to them
> if they have not heard of cases where, say, electrical engineers
> have been out of work for 30 months during which time the government
> is saying there is a looming shortage of engineers and companies are
> offshoring jobs as fast as they possibly can. Where does the
> responsibility to train or retrain people lie? Well, I'm not going
> to say that individuals bear no responsibiity for their own careers.
> OTOH if the government is going to periodically put out studies,
> policy statements, etc. about the looming shortage of labor,
> industries are going to publish articles in trade magazines about
> how hard it is to find employees, and companies are going to move
> jobs offshore without first making a good faith effort to keep
> the jobs in the U.S., then I say government and industry have a
> responsibility to step up to the plate and act instead of wringing
> their collective hands. Until then, whenever I hear another claim
> of impending sci/tech labor shortages, I will say "Bah, humbug!"
>
> God bless us, every one. Merry Christmas!
>
> Russell
> --


Sorry to add gasoline to the fire but I think we should dissuade the
youngsters from pursuing engineering unless they're from a well off
family and can live off the family business (or trust funds) without
needing to draw an income from their academic interests.

Then, we need to actively end age discrimination once and for all and
supply jobs to laid off engineers in their 40s, 50s, and 60s even if
it's in the "latest technology" which could require a month or two of
retraining.

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Old Post 12-24-2004 05:11 PM
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BMJ
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Re: article in IEEE Spectrum

straydog wrote:

<snip>

>
> Merry Xmas (or, if you don't like that, then "good health and wishes to
> all people of good will")
>
>> God bless us, every one. Merry Christmas!

>
>
> Bah, Humbug!!!


I've started wishing people a joyous observance of Sir Isaac Newton's
birthday only to receive blank looks.

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Old Post 12-24-2004 05:11 PM
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R. Martin
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Re: article in IEEE Spectrum

BMJ wrote:
>
> straydog wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> >
> > Merry Xmas (or, if you don't like that, then "good health and wishes to
> > all people of good will")
> >
> >> God bless us, every one. Merry Christmas!

> >
> >
> > Bah, Humbug!!!

>
> I've started wishing people a joyous observance of Sir Isaac Newton's
> birthday only to receive blank looks.


You expected more?

Cheers,
Russell
--
All too often the study of data requires care.

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Old Post 12-24-2004 07:14 PM
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BMJ
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Re: article in IEEE Spectrum

rrcolby wrote:

<snip>

>
> Sorry to add gasoline to the fire but I think we should dissuade the
> youngsters from pursuing engineering unless they're from a well off
> family and can live off the family business (or trust funds) without
> needing to draw an income from their academic interests.


Being an engineer myself, I'd be inclined to agree. I get the
impression that many of them go into engineering figuring it's going to
be an extension of their experience with video games or web surfing.

>
> Then, we need to actively end age discrimination once and for all and
> supply jobs to laid off engineers in their 40s, 50s, and 60s even if
> it's in the "latest technology" which could require a month or two of
> retraining.
>


I look at that like me learning another language. I grew up speaking
both German and English at home and studied French in high school. I
found picking up a third language relatively easy because I was already
familiar with two of them. By comparison, most of my unilingual
classmates found it tough slogging.

Unfortunately, most hiring managers I've dealt with can't think that far.

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Old Post 12-24-2004 07:14 PM
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BMJ
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Re: article in IEEE Spectrum

R. Martin wrote:
> BMJ wrote:
>
>>straydog wrote:
>>
>><snip>
>>
>>>Merry Xmas (or, if you don't like that, then "good health and wishes to
>>>all people of good will")
>>>
>>>
>>>>God bless us, every one. Merry Christmas!
>>>
>>>
>>>Bah, Humbug!!!

>>
>>I've started wishing people a joyous observance of Sir Isaac Newton's
>>birthday only to receive blank looks.

>
>
> You expected more?


Most people probably didn't know that Newton was born on December 25.
I'm sure, however, that there were those who had no idea of who Sir
Isaac was. Maybe they thought he was invented the Fig Newton or they
were flat-earthers offended by my paying homage to that solar-centrist.

>
> Cheers,
> Russell

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Old Post 12-24-2004 07:14 PM
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Rich Lemert
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Re: article in IEEE Spectrum

R. Martin wrote:
> afia boy wrote:
>
>>http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/career.../1104eesb1.html
>>
>>Stay Current, Stay Lucky, Stay Employed
>>
>>Electrical engineering isn't the same ticket to a comfortable,
>>middle-class life that it once was
>>
>>By Paul Wallich
>>

>
> The rest of the article goes on to explain some of the disconnect
> between the soft job market that some of us see and the labor
> shortage that others imagine. The gap is filled by unemployed and
> underemployed technically trained people who only have experience
> with version 6.2 of the software and employers who think they
> absolutely must have someone with experience with version 6.3, and
> other such thinking.


I can't say anything about the hiring perspective, but we see the
opposite problem more often where I work. Most of our customers want
to 'qualify' our software before they use it - they want to see for
themselves that it's accurate. Because this process can be expensive
and very time-consuming, a lot of customers won't do this any more
often than they have to. We have some customers that are three of four
years behind - obviously they're not working at the cutting edge of
semi-conductor technology.

Rich Lemert

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Old Post 12-24-2004 11:01 PM
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R. Martin
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Re: article in IEEE Spectrum

Rich Lemert wrote:
>
> R. Martin wrote:
> > afia boy wrote:
> >
> >>http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/career.../1104eesb1.html
> >>
> >>Stay Current, Stay Lucky, Stay Employed
> >>
> >>Electrical engineering isn't the same ticket to a comfortable,
> >>middle-class life that it once was
> >>
> >>By Paul Wallich
> >>

> >
> > The rest of the article goes on to explain some of the disconnect
> > between the soft job market that some of us see and the labor
> > shortage that others imagine. The gap is filled by unemployed and
> > underemployed technically trained people who only have experience
> > with version 6.2 of the software and employers who think they
> > absolutely must have someone with experience with version 6.3, and
> > other such thinking.

>
> I can't say anything about the hiring perspective, but we see the
> opposite problem more often where I work. Most of our customers want
> to 'qualify' our software before they use it - they want to see for
> themselves that it's accurate. Because this process can be expensive
> and very time-consuming, a lot of customers won't do this any more
> often than they have to. We have some customers that are three of four
> years behind - obviously they're not working at the cutting edge of
> semi-conductor technology.
>
> Rich Lemert


Well, I can appreciate their point of view. My software is years
behind, too (but not as far behind as Art's ;-) ), because it works
and does what I want so why change? But that is a twist on what is
perceived as the usual case in industry. I wonder how widespread it
is?

Back to the eggnog and "Scrooge",
Russell
--
All too often the study of data requires care.

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Old Post 12-25-2004 01:05 AM
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straydog
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Re: article in IEEE Spectrum




On Sat, 25 Dec 2004, R. Martin wrote:

> Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2004 02:13:13 GMT
> From: R. Martin <russell.martin@wdn.com>
> Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
> Subject: Re: article in IEEE Spectrum
>
> Rich Lemert wrote:
>>
>> R. Martin wrote:
>>> afia boy wrote:
>>>
>>>> http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/career.../1104eesb1.html
>>>>
>>>> Stay Current, Stay Lucky, Stay Employed
>>>>
>>>> Electrical engineering isn't the same ticket to a comfortable,
>>>> middle-class life that it once was
>>>>
>>>> By Paul Wallich
>>>>
>>>
>>> The rest of the article goes on to explain some of the disconnect
>>> between the soft job market that some of us see and the labor
>>> shortage that others imagine. The gap is filled by unemployed and
>>> underemployed technically trained people who only have experience
>>> with version 6.2 of the software and employers who think they
>>> absolutely must have someone with experience with version 6.3, and
>>> other such thinking.

>>
>> I can't say anything about the hiring perspective, but we see the
>> opposite problem more often where I work. Most of our customers want
>> to 'qualify' our software before they use it - they want to see for
>> themselves that it's accurate. Because this process can be expensive
>> and very time-consuming, a lot of customers won't do this any more
>> often than they have to. We have some customers that are three of four
>> years behind - obviously they're not working at the cutting edge of
>> semi-conductor technology.
>>
>> Rich Lemert

>
> Well, I can appreciate their point of view. My software is years
> behind, too (but not as far behind as Art's ;-) ), because it works
> and does what I want so why change? But that is a twist on what is
> perceived as the usual case in industry. I wonder how widespread it
> is?


I've got two references to articles where there were studies made of new,
fancy-schmantzy software and big IT projects/upgrades and the fact of the
matter is that many of these projects -- heart attack to Rich Lemert on
the "cutting edge" -- actually fail. And, what do the people do when their
projects fail? They really do go back to the old systems which were proven
to work by that old saw: The test of time.

And, you wondered why there is a lot of resistance to Microsoft? Their
next evolutionary "leap"? You haven't heard about all the SW that Service
Pack 2 breaks? And, is the migration to Linux all due to TCO issues (that
MS is trying to propagandize?) or, now, intimidate (by hinting at IP
liability)? And, SCO is in worse shape than ever?

> Back to the eggnog and "Scrooge",


Yeah, we're partaking of that, too, and also the first installment,
tonight, of "EarthSea"

Remember: Jan 14 for The Cylons

> Russell
> --
> All too often the study of data requires care.
>























































































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Old Post 12-25-2004 01:05 AM
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BMJ
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Re: article in IEEE Spectrum

R. Martin wrote:

<snip>

>> I can't say anything about the hiring perspective, but we see the
>>opposite problem more often where I work. Most of our customers want
>>to 'qualify' our software before they use it - they want to see for
>>themselves that it's accurate. Because this process can be expensive
>>and very time-consuming, a lot of customers won't do this any more
>>often than they have to. We have some customers that are three of four
>>years behind - obviously they're not working at the cutting edge of
>>semi-conductor technology.
>>
>>Rich Lemert

>
>
> Well, I can appreciate their point of view. My software is years
> behind, too (but not as far behind as Art's ;-) ), because it works
> and does what I want so why change? But that is a twist on what is
> perceived as the usual case in industry. I wonder how widespread it
> is?
>
> Back to the eggnog and "Scrooge",
> Russell


That's one reason I prefer open source software. First, it's freely
available. It's frequently updated, so bugs are often fixed quickly.
Often, it does the job better than commercial programs.

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Old Post 12-25-2004 01:05 AM
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Rich Lemert
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Re: article in IEEE Spectrum

R. Martin wrote:
> Rich Lemert wrote:
>


>> I can't say anything about the hiring perspective, but we see the
>>opposite problem more often where I work. Most of our customers want
>>to 'qualify' our software before they use it - they want to see for
>>themselves that it's accurate. Because this process can be expensive
>>and very time-consuming, a lot of customers won't do this any more
>>often than they have to. We have some customers that are three of four
>>years behind - obviously they're not working at the cutting edge of
>>semi-conductor technology.
>>
>>Rich Lemert

>
>
> Well, I can appreciate their point of view. My software is years
> behind, too (but not as far behind as Art's ;-) ), because it works
> and does what I want so why change? But that is a twist on what is
> perceived as the usual case in industry. I wonder how widespread it
> is?


The software I was referring to above is what they call a physical
verification tool. It analyzes the physical design of an IC to make sure
1) that the design is manufacturable (i.e. won't be subject to short-
or open circuits, etc), and 2) is consistent with what the logic
designers asked for. Since a full set of IC design masks costs on the
order of $1-2 million, companies want to make sure of their designs
before they cut the masks. That's why they are so worried about
certifying the tool and so reluctant to move to newer versions.

From our side, though, we have to keep updating the tool in order to
keep up with the technology. That means we have to "fix it even though
it ain't broke." And even though we do our own elaborate Q/A, we can't
foresee everything the customers are going to throw at us.

Rich Lemert

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Old Post 12-25-2004 05:02 PM
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meandmyself
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Re: article in IEEE Spectrum

hmm so investing and savings is the best option besides just earing the
salary...could you tell me how significant this method has been if in
retrospect you had just relied on your salary...

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Old Post 12-25-2004 10:03 PM
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BMJ
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Re: article in IEEE Spectrum

meandmyself wrote:
> hmm so investing and savings is the best option besides just earing the
> salary...could you tell me how significant this method has been if in
> retrospect you had just relied on your salary...
>


I learned to save my money while I was still in elementary school, so
being frivolous with it was never an issue with me. Every time I
received a paycheque, I made sure that I could always put some of it
away, provided that there was any remaining after paying for essentials.
Luxuries were put off until later.

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Old Post 12-25-2004 10:03 PM
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meandmyself
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Re: article in IEEE Spectrum

well for me i'm just about to start off and i face forsee i need to
provide for my parents immediately as they've about to reach
retirement....gosh sometimes i just wish it'd be easier with millions
in my bank....furthermore i suppose i've to delay my university
studies....you face the same problems?

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Old Post 12-26-2004 07:01 AM
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