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A lot of people these days like to say that unions WERE a good idea at
one time but they are not needed anymore. The recent problems at the
Utah mineing company is a good example to show that unions are still
necessary but even if you don't work for a brutal employer, having a
voice in the workplace is something that 90% of people want. Lots of
problems come up at work that are clearly unjust but not illegal.
Workers are often intimidated or just shy about pointing out working
conditions that are unsafe.
In the vast majority of cases union reps can help and problems develop
when one side or the other gets unreasonable. The fact is that unions
are a help to most employers simply because they help to set the rules
and give clear guidlines for employee relations. They also provide
stability with long term wage predictability.

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Sounds like Unions could be replaced with a good profit sharing
program. Just think you wouldn't meed a middle man and as the employer
made more money the employee would make more money.
When you divide the pie in half rather than in thirds there is more
pie for both (labor and ownership).
So who really needs a Union anyway?

Common-cents says "Freedom without Responsibility
is an illusion".

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>From: common-cents@webtv.net

> Sounds like Unions could be replaced with a good profit sharing
>program. Just think you wouldn't meed a middle man and as the employer
>made more money the employee would make more money.
> When you divide the pie in half rather than in thirds there is more
>pie for both (labor and ownership).
> So who really needs a Union anyway?
>
In the abstract your idea is very sound. In the real world it doesn't work.
Another point is that the union doesn't get 1/3 of the profit made by a
company. In my union job I paid approximately 1/2 hour's pay per week to the
union for representing me with the company. A lot less than 1/3 of the company
profit.
There are companies that pay well, and treat their employees fairly. Usually
this is done because the owner hates unions, and wants to make sure his
employees don't join one. Still that's the result of unions.

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tmurph2@peoplepc.com wrote:
> A lot of people these days like to say that unions WERE a good idea at
> one time but they are not needed anymore.

And they are right. Unions today are nothing more than another business
out to rip off the working guy.

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"gary baldwin" <common-cents@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:11021-41C844F8-463@storefull-3231.bay.webtv.net...
> Sounds like Unions could be replaced with a good profit sharing
> program. Just think you wouldn't meed a middle man and as the employer
> made more money the employee would make more money.
> When you divide the pie in half rather than in thirds there is more
> pie for both (labor and ownership).
> So who really needs a Union anyway?

People who work for employers who don't want to divide the pie at all, which
covers most of the working class. Smug morons like yourself think they have
EARNED the benefits unions fought for to benefit all. Keep sneering as our
economy and standard of living continues to falter.

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"Osama Bin Kerry" <obk@osama.net> wrote in message
news:9y_xd.28752$Yh2.13149622@twister.nyc.rr.com...
> tmurph2@peoplepc.com wrote:
>> A lot of people these days like to say that unions WERE a good idea at
>> one time but they are not needed anymore.
>
> And they are right. Unions today are nothing more than another business out
> to rip off the working guy.

Keep muttering scab, since you've know next to nothing about unions you
wouldn't understand how they benefit the working class.

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Michael Legel wrote:
> Keep muttering scab, since you've know next to nothing about unions you
> wouldn't understand how they benefit the working class.

I'm quite familiar with unions since my brother worked for a unionized
company for a number of years. I've also been reading propaganda from
some so-called union organizers at the company where I work.

One of the statements these so-called organizers made is that when a
company is sold, the union contract requires that the buying company
keep the employees.

Well, that didn't happen in my brother's case. The buying company laid
off all the employees then re-hired the few they wanted to keep. The
union didn't do anything about it. There was also severance pay to those
who were not re-hired. The company short-changed the employees. When the
employees tried to get their money, they were told deal with the union
since the contract requires all dealings to be thru the union. So the
union told the employees to have a nice day and they weren't going after
the severance pay.

So, basically, unions suck.
>
>

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On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 20:30:18 GMT, "Michael Legel"
<mjlegel@verizon.net> wrote:

>
>"Osama Bin Kerry" <obk@osama.net> wrote in message
>news:9y_xd.28752$Yh2.13149622@twister.nyc.rr.com...
>> tmurph2@peoplepc.com wrote:
>>> A lot of people these days like to say that unions WERE a good idea at
>>> one time but they are not needed anymore.
>>
>> And they are right. Unions today are nothing more than another business out
>> to rip off the working guy.
>
>Keep muttering scab, since you've know next to nothing about unions you
>wouldn't understand how they benefit the working class.
>
Just curious, if unions are so great for thr "working class", why has
membership continued to decline?

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"George Orwell" <casespam@lido.net> wrote in message
news:268hs056mqeir3id5arkmgms45ck3hclcn@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 20:30:18 GMT, "Michael Legel"
> <mjlegel@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Osama Bin Kerry" <obk@osama.net> wrote in message
>>news:9y_xd.28752$Yh2.13149622@twister.nyc.rr.com...
>>> tmurph2@peoplepc.com wrote:
>>>> A lot of people these days like to say that unions WERE a good idea at
>>>> one time but they are not needed anymore.
>>>
>>> And they are right. Unions today are nothing more than another business
>>> out
>>> to rip off the working guy.
>>
>>Keep muttering scab, since you've know next to nothing about unions you
>>wouldn't understand how they benefit the working class.
>>
> Just curious, if unions are so great for thr "working class", why has
> membership continued to decline?

Because our society no longer requires the enforcement of labor law. Workers
are fired for union activity and unions haven't the finances to lawyer up
against such intimidation. Ronnie Raygun turned the tide by removing unions
ability to negotiate for workers. Few people are willing to stand up against
this intimidation. Added to that are the scabs like Ospama who are willing to
work for less and help to bust the workers' union. If the laws were enforced
unions would continue to make life better for the working class. Now people
work longer for less.

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>From: "Michael Legel"

>> Just curious, if unions are so great for thr "working class", why has
>> membership continued to decline?
>
>Because our society no longer requires the enforcement of labor law. Workers
>
>are fired for union activity and unions haven't the finances to lawyer up
>against such intimidation. Ronnie Raygun turned the tide by removing unions
>ability to negotiate for workers. Few people are willing to stand up against
>
>this intimidation. Added to that are the scabs like Ospama who are willing
>to
>work for less and help to bust the workers' union. If the laws were enforced
>
>unions would continue to make life better for the working class. Now people
>work longer for less.
>
Just to add one further note on the decline of unions in America. At the same
time unions are declining the average median wage has declined for the last 2
years.
The workers that are union have not seen that decline, but their numbers are
too smkall to artificially shore up the figures anymore. Want a good non-union
paying job? Go to India. Their middle Class is booming.

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Union numbers have declined unfortunatly due in part to the constant
propaganda from the right on the radio and cable TV. The assult on
overtime and the screwing of people out of there pensions and health
care may help to convince workers to come back together to force
companies to do the right thing.
Unions will be back because greedy corporations will force them back.

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Michael Legel wrote:
> Because our society no longer requires the enforcement of labor law. Workers
> are fired for union activity and unions haven't the finances to lawyer up
> against such intimidation. Ronnie Raygun turned the tide by removing unions
> ability to negotiate for workers.

Reagon did nothing to remove union's abilities. The one thing he did do
was decertify PATCO because they declared an illegal strike - you do
believe unions should obey the law, don't you?

What we need next is for the courts to invalidate the laws that allow
unions to force employees to pay agency fees and to pass laws forbidding
such travesties as checkoff cards.

> Few people are willing to stand up against
> this intimidation. Added to that are the scabs like Ospama who are willing to
> work for less and help to bust the workers' union.

How is being well within the top 10% income bracket working for less?

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>
>What we need next is for the courts to invalidate the laws that allow
>unions to force employees to pay agency fees and to pass laws forbidding
>such travesties as checkoff cards.

Oh, come on, what you really want is the banning of unions, so corporations
like Wal-Mart won't have to worry about them any more.

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I am glad my union exists. I am a retail clerk. They are not perfect.
Sometimes they don't return your call. Sometimes it seems they are on
management's side, but they keep the wages slightly above "free enterprise"
starvation levels.

Where I work, management tells you nothing about what "rights" you have as
a worker. They will use you / abuse you as much as they can, unless you bitch.
Calling the union is the only way to know what they can and cannot make you do.
But even the union won't tell you unless you ask.

So yes, I like my union, and am glad it exists.

However , they are constantly sending me hype about getting a union credit
card, and getting union life ins, auto ins, etc. A money making ploy, no doubt.
I just toss it out. Oh, well.

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Krieg274, what you need to do is get more involved with your local
union and make it better from the inside. The credit card and life
insurance are from the international union.

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"Boomerlake" <boomerlake@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
news:20041221214913.06162.00001697@mb-m27.aol.com...
> >
>>What we need next is for the courts to invalidate the laws that allow
>>unions to force employees to pay agency fees and to pass laws forbidding
>>such travesties as checkoff cards.
>
> Oh, come on, what you really want is the banning of unions, so
> corporations
> like Wal-Mart won't have to worry about them any more.

No such law is necessary, unions are dying a slow natural death that is very
entertaining to say the least.

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"Frank" <dontspamme@anytime.com> wrote in message
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>
> "Boomerlake" <boomerlake@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
> news:20041221214913.06162.00001697@mb-m27.aol.com...
>> >
>>>What we need next is for the courts to invalidate the laws that allow
>>>unions to force employees to pay agency fees and to pass laws forbidding
>>>such travesties as checkoff cards.
>>
>> Oh, come on, what you really want is the banning of unions, so
>> corporations
>> like Wal-Mart won't have to worry about them any more.
>
> No such law is necessary, unions are dying a slow natural death that is very
> entertaining to say the least.

Actually there is nothing natural about it ... except to say that murder is a
natural resort of the greedy. The majority of people who are given the real
history of unions vote for them. The fact is the fat cats simply have more
influence in our country. Why is it we are hearing all this concern about
tort reform to protect the medical community from their malpractice but not
one word of tort reform when it comes to enforcing labor law? Try taking a
concern to the NLRB since Duh-bya was crowned? Don't waste your time.

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Michael Legel wrote:
> Why is it we are hearing all this concern about
> tort reform to protect the medical community from their malpractice but not
> one word of tort reform when it comes to enforcing labor law?

I can accept that. Increase the penalties on the union for violating
rulings like the Beck ruling or increasing penalties for embezzlement of
union funds.

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"Osama Bin Kerry" <obk@osama.net> wrote in message
news:31Wzd.33262$kq2.4592@twister.nyc.rr.com...
> Michael Legel wrote:
> > Why is it we are hearing all this concern about
>> tort reform to protect the medical community from their malpractice but not
>> one word of tort reform when it comes to enforcing labor law?
>
> I can accept that. Increase the penalties on the union for violating rulings
> like the Beck ruling or increasing penalties for embezzlement of union
> funds.

Enough from you scab Ospama.

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Michael Legel wrote:
>>I can accept that. Increase the penalties on the union for violating rulings
>>like the Beck ruling or increasing penalties for embezzlement of union
>>funds.
>
>
> Enough from you scab Ospama.

Well, the existing penalties are not working, so the penalties need to
be increased to the point where the union does get it

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"Osama Bin Kerry" <obk@osama.net> wrote in message
news:JtZzd.33291$kq2.17930@twister.nyc.rr.com...
> Michael Legel wrote:
>>>I can accept that. Increase the penalties on the union for violating
>>>rulings like the Beck ruling or increasing penalties for embezzlement of
>>>union funds.
>>
>>
>> Enough from you scab Ospama.
>
> Well, the existing penalties are not working, so the penalties need to be
> increased to the point where the union does get it

You won't be happy until all unions are destroyed Ospama bin Scab. You are
indeed a one song symphony. I used to feel sorry for you, now I simply
despise you. Why do you persist in this nonsense? You don't even attempt
rational discussion, you just rant about your hatred for unions and their
members. I really think you ought to consider mental health alternatives.

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> despise you. Why do you persist in this nonsense? You don't even attempt
> rational discussion, you just rant about your hatred for unions and their
> members. I really think you ought to consider mental health alternatives.

For those altruistic enough to have any sort of belief that things that are
just and good will triumph, then the obvious conclusion is that unions are
not just and good, because they are doing a lot of things, by being
triumphant is deffinately not on the list. Like species of animals or
insects that are obsolete and can no longer adapt to become relevant, unions
will fade out and become a foot note in the dust bin of history, to be
regarded with curiousity and contempt by future generations. Just ask
politicians like Gephardt, he can tell you how useful they have become these
days. Think about it, what are the first words that come to most people's
minds when your say the word "union". Words like "Corrupt", "Mafia",
"Violence", "Blackmail", "Bribery", "Lazy" are just a small sampling. "Hard
working", "efficient", "Fair", "Reasonable"?? Not a chance in hell, folks.

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"Frank" <dontspamme@anytime.com> wrote in message
news:yh%zd.11318$9j5.8982@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>> despise you. Why do you persist in this nonsense? You don't even attempt
>> rational discussion, you just rant about your hatred for unions and their
>> members. I really think you ought to consider mental health alternatives.
>
> For those altruistic enough to have any sort of belief that things that are
> just and good will triumph, then the obvious conclusion is that unions are
> not just and good, because they are doing a lot of things, by being
> triumphant is deffinately not on the list. Like species of animals or
> insects that are obsolete and can no longer adapt to become relevant, unions
> will fade out and become a foot note in the dust bin of history, to be
> regarded with curiousity and contempt by future generations. Just ask
> politicians like Gephardt, he can tell you how useful they have become these
> days. Think about it, what are the first words that come to most people's
> minds when your say the word "union". Words like "Corrupt", "Mafia",
> "Violence", "Blackmail", "Bribery", "Lazy" are just a small sampling. "Hard
> working", "efficient", "Fair", "Reasonable"?? Not a chance in hell, folks.

It's a shame you are so negative Frank. I think of things like "Independence
Hall", the carpenters' union hall where the Declaration of Independence was
signed. I think of the "Union" of our fifty states, as in the "State of the
Union" speech we hear from our President every year. I think of our
Constitution, much of which was based upon union by-laws of the time. I think
of being retired at 48 years of age with good pension and medical benefits.
(Thank you UAW) I think of people like Paul Revere, Samuel Adams, Ben
Franklin and others of our forefathers who belonged to the guilds of their
time and were quite proud of it. I think of the millions of unionized
Americans who made tremendous sacrifices during WWII to build the tanks,
ships, airplanes and other supplies. (Not to mention shouldering those
weapons to fight). I think of all the advances unions have brought the
working class such as safety laws, quality products, sick pay, health
benefits, paid holidays, fair wages, fair employment practices for hiring,
firing and promotions. I think of the huge advantage it has provided
management across the country to help deal with employee problems of all
kinds. I also think of the AMA, ABA, Rotary Club, Chamber of Commerce,
Jaycees, etc. who are unions by other names ... groups of like-minded people
who work together to better themselves collectively ... as do unions. And
that's just off the top of my head Frank. There is much to be said for unity
and people working together to make life better for all. It really is a shame
you can't see that.

You are so close-minded and ignorant of the real value of unions it is sad.
All the worn out clichés about corruption, mafia, etc. are pathetic. Our
government has more in connection with those societal ills than do the hard
working men and women of America. You and Ospama deserve each other.

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>
>"Boomerlake" <boomerlake@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
>news:20041221214913.06162.00001697@mb-m27.aol.com...
>> >
>>>What we need next is for the courts to invalidate the laws that allow
>>>unions to force employees to pay agency fees and to pass laws forbidding
>>>such travesties as checkoff cards.
>>
>> Oh, come on, what you really want is the banning of unions, so
>> corporations
>> like Wal-Mart won't have to worry about them any more.
>
>No such law is necessary, unions are dying a slow natural death that is very
>entertaining to say the least.

Certainly not everywhere. In Las Vegas unions have been in a boom. Having
been unionized, casino workers are now getting paid more and help explain in
large part what's behind the huge boom in the building of new homes in Las
Vegas. Who knows, if unions were kept out, maybe new trailer parks fanning out
everywhere would be the in the news in Las Vegas

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> Certainly not everywhere. In Las Vegas unions have been in a boom.

Yes, unions have always done well with vice, what a shock.

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